I am the Devil's advocate.

"Since you don't believe in life after this in any way, what keeps you from doing whatever you want to? If your answer is the law, then just don't believe in the law and go ahead and do whatever anyway."

This was an early response i couldn't read without commenting on.  I apologize to all religious people who think this way because this is exactly what makes me angry with organized religion.  (i'm going to refer to people with these views as YOU) you think that just becuase i do not believe in any higher power, don't believe in a god, don't believe in an after life,  that i am without morales and boundaries? that is absolutletly fasle and absurd.  the bible gives religious people there set of moral standards and i like that,  but i don't believe that any of the stories are set in truth any more than aesop's fables are.  I think that society today is fucked up in that people will only do good deeds, or live a certain way, because if they don't a big scary man in the sky will send them to the fiery place down below. 

If you think logically, you would see that the bible was only written to manipulate, as it is doing a great job of right now.  I, being an athiest,  do not steal, or kill. And my reasoning for that is not becuase i have religious morales given to me from god, but that i won't do those things because in current society those things are wrong, against the norm.  I don't need anyone or any higher power telling me, i know the things are wrong either way.

So to respond to the ignorant person i quoted, what keeps me from doing whatever i want is a set of morales, probably similar to everyone elses, its just that i don't need a bible or an imaginary figure in the sky to tell shape them for me.

My apologies to all for not replying sooner. I read all comments to my post, and I will try to clump my responses and thoughts as best I can.

I would first like to make clear the general attitude of replies I recieved. As religious believers, who believe that their own faith is the only "true" one, it is natural to regard me as someone who is somehow "lost" or "confused" or "in denial". This is simply not the case. I was raised in a reasonably religious Catholic family. I attended church every week, along with sunday school when I was young. I was indoctrinated with all aspects of the Catholic faith. I learned about the teachings of Jesus, many of which I agree with wholeheartedly. Jesus did indeed say many things that were lightyears ahead of his time. I have nothing against Jesus or his teachings, though I did think it was rather silly to automatically ascribe to him some sort of divine ability, simply because he was a good teacher and leader. Due to this, and many other discrepancies I had with the Catholic faith, I left my church and eventually settled on my beliefs as they stand now. Thus, my disbelief resulted from a rational examination of my mindset and my moral values, not from some sort of confusion or ignorance or dispair. Do not assume that I have no exposure to religion simply because I do not believe in it.
Secondly, regarding Jane's comment about evolution, dark matter and quarks and comparing those "unseen" phenomena with believing in a deity, there is a radical difference between accepting science and accepting a god. Dark matter, quarks, and evolution, while they definitely cannot be "seen", all have inordinate amounts of research and experimentation behind them. Said results have also gone through ludicrous amounts of peer review and cross-experimentation. While dark matter is still reasonably debateable, quarks and evolution are not. They have both been deemed the most likely explanation for the respective phenomena that we observe in this world. The existence of a benevolent, omniscient deity has no such experimental backing, though it is obvious that such an experiment on any god's existence can not be feasibly designed. Therefore, when I say: "I believe that evolution is probably how we as a species became what we are today", I am affirming that I recognize that the evidence is stacked in my favor, and I can adequately defend my position. Conversely, if I were to say "I believe in God", then I would be affirming that I feel that God must exist, and I would take it on blind faith that it is so. While human emotions are indeed powerful forces, they have absolutely no contingency on the empirical truth of anything.
Thirdly, regarding the very first reply to my post. I have indeed thought much on the topic you presented, and I would like to clear up some misconceptions. I'm fully aware that my beliefs have no effect on what is true and what is not true. I know that if I am wrong, then I will suffer the consequences, if any. I just believe it is more likely that I am right. As such, I do not use atheism as a means to any selfish ends, that is, my beliefs do not make me immoral. While I do not claim to be perfect, I believe that my atheism is entirely compatible with living a good, even meaningful life. We as human beings tend to correlate meaning with duration. I do not think the two are related. I can acknowledge that life is short and still enjoy and appreciate every minute of it. Thusly, though I do not believe in God, I do believe in humanity, and that means I can help someone up when they're down, or volunteer my time for the local food pantry, or be there for my fellow human beings. Being good is human; belief in deities is not required. You seem to claim that the only reason people are good is to earn reward in heaven, or to avoid punishment in hell. To say so blatantly demeans humanity.

Conclusively, I know that most of you think I am some sort of heretic, blasphemer, infidel, etc., and I'm betting that you believe that I will rot in hell for these crimes. Take a moment to consider, however, that there are other religions in this world, and members of those religions may regard you in the same way. How can you be sure that you're not the ones who are wrong? Perhaps the only way to "salvation" is to be a Sikh? or a Jain? or a Muslim? or a Jew? or a Buddhist? or a Hindu? or follow the Flying Spaghetti Monster? All of them have equally valid perspectives (as "valid" as a religious perspective can be) and yet you do not lose any sleep over wondering if your relgion is the right one. The truth is, there is no way to know. And some of us recognize that and would rather not worry about religion, and choose to live our lives as best we can, and being the best people that we can along the way.
I know there's probably no way that I can "convert" any of you, and I know that. BUt at the very least, I hope you realize that the godless are people too, and Jesus taught not to reject anybody, regardless of who they are or what they believe.
That is all. I thank you for taking the time to read my (rather long) comment. I hope you feel at the very least, slightly enlightened.
I'll be checking back in a week or so to see if anybody has any additional thoughts.

Peace!

-Leviathan

"What can be asserted with no evidence, can be refuted with no evidence."

-Christopher Hitchens

I am not truely Christian and might seem more Aetheist but that is just a misconception on your behalf. I do believe in God so don't pray for my soul. But I agree with just about all the things Leviathan said and think that most of you should take a moment to think about the evidence (If you don't think their is much evidence then you should really make good use of Google and research most of what he said) and ponder weather or not Leviathan is right about anything he said. If you still come to a resounding "NO" or "That Guys Going To Hell" you should really learn to embrace logic. There is at least one thing he talks about up there that anyone can agree on. Im not saying just disregard your beliefs but Im saying "Think about it." and is that a bad thing? Thinking independently with your mind and freedom of choice that God gave you, its fine to contradict God's plan and what he says is wrong and right. If he didn't want us to think for our own he would have given us logical rational contradicting minds. So just think about it without bias, rationally.  

Identifying oneself as having a closed mind  makes it difficult or impossible to have any dialogue. Furthermore, anyone who would be so egotistical as to think everything just sorta happened by accident during a bazillion years of evolution...what is there to discuss?

 Ignorance is bliss, or at least the illusion is.

Leviathan,

I was hoping to hear from you once again. If you prayed and accepted Jesus please contact the Christian Broadcasting Networks 700 Club hotline and tell some one there. Ask them to help direct you to a church in the area you live in.

CBN Main Switchboard (757) 226-7000

• The 700 Club Prayer Counselors are available
  24 hours a day and seven days a week. If you need prayer,
  please call (800) 759-0700 or send
  an online prayer request
• Check out
  our CBN Teaching Sheets

from: http://www.patrobertson.com/

Spiritual Journey
Something's Missing

Pat Robertson - Shout It From The Housetops

From Shout It From the Housetops
By Pat Robertson

Things just
didn't seem to be adding up. My father, as U.S. Senator from
Virginia and Chairman of the Banking and Currency Committee,
was one of the most powerful men in the nation. I had a proud
Southern heritage-honor grad. from military prep school, Golden
Gloves boxer, Phi Beta Kappa at Washington and Lee, Marine combat
officer in Korea, law degree from Yale, trouble- shooter for
the W.R. Grace Company in South America, and now in the electronic
component business with some of my old law school buddies. And
on top of it all, 1956 was an election year, and I was chairman
of the Stevenson-for-President campaign headquarters on Staten
Island. Yet suddenly it all seemed empty. What was the matter
with me?

God Has
a Purpose for Your Life

I sat there, looking absently at the ceiling and hearing Dede
moving about in the kitchen. Another of those strange feelings
that had been clouding up my thoughts with increasing frequency
for the past year settled over me. God has a purpose for your
life. An inaudible voice seemed to be speaking in the deep recesses
of my mind.

God.

The only other
person I knew who really felt this way was my mother. In her
long, involved, and often preachy letters from Lexington, she
constantly reminded me she was praying for me. "Pat, God has
a plan for your life, and you will never be happy until you
are in the center of that plan"

God? Who was
He, really? I had joined our Southern Baptist Church in Lexington
as a boy-just like all the other boys. But the experiences had
been primarily social, not spiritual. Time was spent in Sunday
school and church?but I never did really understand what the
church was all about. It had been so easy to drop away from
it when I left home.

Is Life
Really so Futile?

Dede poured me a drink and then returned to the kitchen to make
the last-minute preparations for dinner. We had met at Yale
where she was working on her master's degree in nursing, and
we had married before I finished school. Yet, even in marriage
I was so burdened with the futility of life that at one point
I had actually contemplated suicide.

After graduation
I had taken the New York bar exam, but my heart was not in it,
and I had failed. My father was perplexed, heartbroken. "Pat,
you've always made your mark; there's been nothing out of your
reach. Now you fail the bar exam. What's wrong?" I doubted seriously
if I could ever explain to Dad the disillusionment I felt about
life. I had tried pleasure, philosophy, a profession-nothing
satisfied. I lived with a nagging feeling I just didn't belong
anywhere. Life was empty.

The only real
contact I had with any purpose in life came through Mother's
letters. She was lonely and wrote often. Dad stayed in Washington
during the week, getting home only on weekends. But Mother was
a gracious, charming woman who kept mostly to herself and God.
She bombarded us with Gospel literature until Dede felt that
she was a religious fanatic, and I tossed the letters aside.
Yet I knew they were not empty forms, but an extension of the
very life she lived.

God Reveals
His Purpose

Late one night
after Dede had put Tim in the little upstairs bedroom, she joined
me on the sofa in the front room. She was putting on fresh pillowcases
before we pulled out the sofa bed for the night, and I blurted
out, "You know, I really feel God wants me to go into the ministry."
I waited for her reaction. There was none. "Well, what do you
think?" "I think it might be fun," she said, sitting down beside
me. "Maybe you could get a nice church, and I could sit behind
a beautiful silver tea service and entertain. We could have
a big old manse with rooms to spare. It sounds exciting."

Dede looked
at me. "I guess if you're going to think seriously about going
in the ministry, we ought to start going to church and find
out what it's all about," she ventured. It was a good idea,
and for the last several Sundays we had been visiting various
churches. Since I was a Baptist, we started out there. On our
way home from church that first Sunday I asked Dede, whose background
was Roman Catholic, what she thought of the service. "I'm puzzled,"
she said. "Why did that man get up in the middle of the service
and start blowing that horrible horn?" "Oh, that was just a
trumpet solo," I explained. "What did you think of the sermon?"
"It wasn't a very good sermon either," she said. "I thought
Catholics were the only ones who read out of books. He read
the whole thing. But that horn was enough for me," she said,
shuddering. "Let's try someplace else next week."

The next week
we attended a Moravian Church. It was Communion Sunday, and
they had the "right hand of fellowship" In fact, they had it
about six times when, at a secret signal during the service,
everyone got up and started shaking hands all around the room.
It was a friendly spirit, but I glanced over at Dede, and the
bewildered expression on her face convinced me we should keep
looking.

The following
week we attended an Evangelical Free Church, and for the first
time felt we might belong. The minister believed and preached
the Bible. This made an impact on me, for I had been reading
the Bible daily for the last year. In fact, on several occasions
I had opened the Bible and had Scripture verses almost leap
out at me as answers to my prayers. Dede said she enjoyed the
services-as much as any pregnant woman can who has to hold a
child on her lap-and we decided we would stick it out there.
It was this minister who had come to call.

You Can't
be Serious

"You're kidding," one of my business associates said when I
told him I was going to get out of business and enter the ministry.
"What for?" "I don't know," I answered. "I just have a feeling
I should do something good for mankind." "You mean you're going
to become a priest or something?" he said unbelieving. "What
about your booze? Your salty language? And those cigars?" "I
didn't say I was going to resign from the human race" I grinned.
"But somebody's got to help this world out of the mess it's
in, and I don't see where I'm making much of a contribution
peddling electronic devices."

A month later,
in early April 1956, I went home to Lexington to tell my mother
of my decision. I was sitting
at the kitchen table while she prepared dinner, and her reaction
came pretty much as a shock. "Pat, something's wrong. I don't
think you have the slightest idea what you're talking about."
"But Mother, I thought this would be the thing that would please
you most." "It does please me, Son," she said, wiping her hands
on a paper towel and sitting down across from me. "But how can
you go into the ministry until you know Jesus Christ? You know
how I know that you don't know Him? Because you don't talk right.
You never mention His name. "You've got to accept Him as Lord
of your life, Pat. Unless you do, you're going to be just as
spiritually empty a minister as you are a businessman. You cannot
fill your emptiness by trying to do the work of God. It's like
trying to fill a bottomless bucket. What you need is a new bucket.
You need to be born again."

Hidden
Truth Begins to Surface

I returned to New York the next day, still smarting under Mother's
dogmatism. But deep in my inner spirit I felt that she was talking
about something essential, something still hidden from me.

A week later
I came in from work, and Dede handed me a note. "You got a phone
call from this man in Philadelphia. He wants you to call him
back."

I glanced
at the note and saw the name: Cornelius Vanderbreggen. It was
a name that was to change my life.

you can read the rest here: http://www.patrobertson.com/spiritualjourney/

It was a book I was eager to pass around at one time called Shout it From The Housetops.

Any one who hasn't read it might want to think about doing so. With many people these days who appear to do it all for "The Money" it's a refreshing break to know not all walk that walk..

Hi Leviathan,

The Word confirms The Word. I have no need to defend The Bible it has been here longer than most books on our planet and has stood up to challenge after challenge on it's own. That's because ( you can believe this or not ) The Word is a "Living Word" that has a life of it's own. It was written not to condemn the world, or you, or the ultimate non-christian in your book of favorite atheists who appear to have all the answers. I can also say with all candor there is nothing I could do or say to convince you if I chose to try that The Word is a live and true. No man or woman can. If they think they can, then run like heck - far away, for they hold themselves above their Lord & Savior and are working from the flesh not through His Spirit.

Did you know...

The Bible was written to be a "light" in a world of darkness that would draw men and women to see and know Jesus Christ. A lot of people know about Jesus, and that's a fact but to know Jesus Christ is an experience unexpected.

1st let me state I did not grow up a bible thumper - I was like you a person who despised "religion" and if you came near me on the street with a Bible or the like you probably would have walked away sore or "not" walked away.I was a scoffer following my own desires. I had a great job as a realtor, new car, fine home but knew, despite there was something missing. Just didn't know what that was.. One night all alone in my car in upstate NY (Ithaca area) after completing a sale in the middle of a snow storm.. I headed back toward my home... It was a blizzard and I had to pull over.. and got stuck. Not a car insight.. and nothing to do but wait, I turned on the radio.. I couldn't get any stations save one..a christian station run by CBN's Pat Robertson..no matter which way I turned the dial.. I wanted to KICK that radio right out of the car.. just then they stopped playing songs and put on this guy you may have heard of, Chuck Colson..so I thought -- ok, I could handle politics.. and left it on..

Before the speaker was finished, Jesus came and I felt His presence, and for the first time in my life I knew He was real.. and I started confessing things I had no idea were sins against Him ( I can't sin against you or any one else I found out, against Him alone can I sin ) and I accepted him, all alone, no one around who lived on the planet trying to convince me Jesus was real or that I was a sinner.. that's when I learned, only He through His Holy Spirit can touch a life, we just have to be there an open our mouths He does all the work.

That aside.. let me finish the above statement... Jesus didn't come into the world to condemn it but to save it, and you and I.

I have to ask a question. Have you ever read The Bible with an open mind set? Have you asked God if He is real to let you know ( between Him and you of course as each persons relationship with God, His Son and the Holy Spirit are personal.. as if they were the only person on the planet ( hard concept there - sounds impossible but - if a God created heaven and earth.. whats so hard about that?)

I challenge you to do so, in a quiet place, by yourself and just seek Him as Thomas sought to place his fingers in the nail holes in Jesus hands ( he was a doubter too - you can read about him in the New Testament. )

God loves you and offers a wonderful plan for your life.

God created you. Not only that, He loves you so much that he wants you to spend eternity with Him. Jesus said, "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life" (John 3:16).

Jesus came so that each of us could know and understand God in a personal way. Jesus alone can bring meaning and purpose to life, all else is temporal.

Would you like to know God personally?

All of us are sinful and separated from God. Therefore we cannot know and experience God’s love and plan for our life.

The fact is, we need Jesus. The Bible says, "…all fall short of God’s glorious standard" (Romans 3:23b). Though God intended for us to have a relationship with Him, we naturally want to do things our own way. We’re stubborn, selfish, and frequently unable to follow through on our promises. Try as we might, we just keep stumbling.

Deep down, our attitude may be one of active rebellion or passive indifference, but it’s all evidence of what the Bible calls sin — an old archery term which literally means "missing the mark."

The Bible says the result of sin in our lives is death–spiritual separation from God (Romans 6:23). Although we may try to reach God through our own effort, we inevitably fail. We just can’t ever be good enough.

Jesus Christ is God’s only provision for our sin. Through Him we can know and experience God’s love and plan for our life.

Jesus Christ is God’s solution to the problem of human imperfection and evil. Because of Jesus’ death on the cross, we don’t have to be separated from God any longer. Jesus paid the price for our sin and in so doing, bridged the gap between us and God.

Instead of trying harder to reach God, we simply need to accept Jesus and his sacrifice as the one way to God.

"I am the way, the truth and the life," Jesus said. "No one can come to the Father except through me" (John 14:6).

He also said,

"I am the resurrection and the life. Those who believe in me, even though they die like everyone else, will live again. They are given eternal life for believing in me and will never perish" (John 11:25-26).

Not only did Jesus die for our sin, He rose from the dead (1 Corinthians 15:3-6). When he did, he proved beyond doubt that he can rightfully promise eternal life–that he is the son of God and the only means by which we can know God.

Yet just having knowledge about God’s plans and purposes isn’t enough. We need to consciously accept Jesus Christ as the payment for our sin and welcome Him into our life.

We must individually accept Jesus Christ as Saviour and Lord; then we can know and experience God’s love and plan for our life.

The Bible says, "But to all who believed him and accepted him, he gave the right to become children of God" (John 1:12).

We accept Jesus by faith. The Bible says, "God saved you by his special favour when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God. Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it" (Ephesians 2:8,9).

Accepting Jesus means first believing that Jesus is who he claimed to be, then inviting him to take the control of our lives and make us into new people (John 3:1-8).

Jesus said, "I’m standing at the door and I’m knocking. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in" (Revelation 3:20).

How will you respond to God’s invitation? Will you seek that quiet place and just ask Him if he is real, or walk on?

If you go to "the quiet" place and listen.. consider saying these words below as you seek Him; to come into His presence...

"Jesus,

I want to know you.

I want you to come into my heart and life. I’m sorry for the things I’ve done that have broken my relationship with God the Father. I believe that you came into this world so that I may find you, died on the cross so that our relationship could be made whole, and rose from the dead so that I may one day rise to live eternally with You. I believe You are the only One who can open my eyes and ears to your presence and once there that only You can give me the power to change and become the person You created me to be.

Please, let me know you are real Jesus.

Amen."

I pray that the Holy Spirit touch your life in a very special way, and that in these, what appear to be the last days, you, through Jesus Christ are made a warrior for His peace, a peace that surpasses all Human understanding, the peace of knowing He is Real, He is alive and He is coming back for you as you share that peace with others.

I would Love to reply, where to begin though as you have brought up so many questions that need answering. I am just a simple woman, I have graduated from High school and have taken a single year of College yet I will try to answer you the best I can. One there is a God, you see his handiwork in all the things around you, even in the very fact that you are, why we are asked to believe in dark matter (noone has proven or seen), quarks which are sappost to be forces that keep atoms together and yet are to be seen, and evolution which will never be seen or proven, yet we are laughed at when we ask for you to believe in a Loving entity that created all we are for a purpose. The rest i will answe in this, when we a people, forget or disguard the sanctity of motherhood, the innocence of childhood, the respect and dignity of our elders it has truely come to an end. The bonds of marriage, are the joining of man to woman in the procreation of the species, of us, if we continue to cloud and distort these bonds we will not be a species long after. Children are our future all of our future, without a man and a woman to create them we are all doomed. Finally, yes, most us "Christians" have read the Bible all the way through, and those who haven't should, it is God's word, and there is nothing more important or usful especialy in this day than the wisdom and knowledge that God has given to us freely, please i would encourage you to read it all the way through yourself, especialy the words of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they we're true then as they are now and will be forever more, Amen.

Dear Leviathan42x:

To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men. For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another. But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men. But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain. A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself. Titus 3:2-11

Advocate4Good

I can only pray that God will not punish you for this blasphemy.